The October 6, 1983 you were sentenced to a sentence of 75 years to life. How do you feel about the fact spend your life in prison?
course I do not like being in prison, but would have been worse if I had lost my commitment to the fight against a system so incredibly destructive of human life and dignity. At age 75, good imperialism will not last long. Nor think I'll spend my whole life in prison. A revolutionary can be killed, inside or outside, but if we're talking about 30 or 40 years to the round - many important changes, even revolutionary changes are meant to happen in that time.
Those accused of participating in the "Assault Brinks "on October 20, 1981 were labeled in the media as" terrorists "and" cold-blooded murderers. " Do you how you define yourself?
makes sense that law enforcement agencies and the media labeled us power in this way: any tyrannical system has to discredit those who try to build resistance against it, and must try to separate these revolutionaries People who suffer under their system. Indeed, accusations of the media become a reality within your mind: spreading the big lie. This government and economic interests are served by major cold-blooded murderers and terrorists of the world. When you understand the reality of all the people dying of hunger, disease, abuse and systematic terror against the movement of people from around the world, then the human response is to find ways to fight against U.S. imperialism as more effective possible.
On what was, according to your point of view, the action of October 20?
was an attempt to expropriation. That means taking the money of those who accumulate wealth by exploiting people and using it to finance the resistance. Every revolution has had to use expropriation as a method of financing. You will not get exactly grants from the Ford Foundation or Rockefeller. This particular expropriation was under the leadership of the Black Liberation Army participated in alliance with white revolutionaries. The BLA communiqué after the action said that the funds would be used to build the army, and national programs, especially for you in the black community.
How was it for you the day of the arrest? Were you abused?
The police were furious. Were used to cede people without trying to defend. They tried to talk me and beat me for about three hours. Then I placed the barrel of a gun to his neck saying to speak. Later the "bad cop" came to say to each one of us that we would get to go to the electric chair. I followed the "good cop" - in this case an FBI agent - who said that the first talk was to have a great opportunity.
How was that for you?
really helps to know that you're fighting for a good cause and there is no way to ever go to speak, That takes a lot of internal tension to the situation. While they were beating me and Judy Clark had been shot down, were using torture in Two New African (black). There is a difference comes to brutality and torture: The latter implies a more or less systematic and scientific application of pain. Sam Brown broke his neck in two places and then denied him the necessary surgery for eleven weeks - until it became an informant. All this can be documented in medical records. Sekou Odinga, who was arrested in Queens on October 23, 1981 went to the police station without a scratch. He was admitted for three months in a hospital with intravenous feeding. The police systematically worked her pancreas, extinguished cigarettes on his body, and other things of course. Sekou never wavered.
Many people say they can sympathize with your goals but hate your tactics.
Well, I really wish there was a way to defeat imperialism without pain and bloodshed. Our generation tried to "shake the moral conscience of America" \u200b\u200bin the 60's. I think a clear lesson of Vietnam, the bloody overthrow of Allende in Chile, COINTELPRO campaigns against the black movement here or criminal attacks in Nicaragua today is that you must be willing to fight and ultimately to defeat the forces of imperialism and violence to achieve real change.
But what what about the deaths of that day? Two policemen and a Brinks guard were killed. Some social activists feel that no objective justification for the loss of human lives.
First, to be clear, the purpose of expropriation is not to harm or punish police officers or guards. The goal is to escape as quickly and cleanly as possible with the funds for the revolt. The history of delighting fighters to be shooting at Brinks guard creation is pure propaganda. Privately, FBI analysts know and even claim that the practice of the BLA is not out shooting but to try to disarm the guards. The only shots fired that day revolutionaries were in response to a clear death threat. People have been conditioned to be sensitive to certain types of death and not to others. When a policeman is killed we are bombarded with images of a human tragedy. But the police shooting people in the Third World (occasionally poor whites) are everyday events, almost always treated as routine and acceptable. Today the New York police were outraged that even has come out a charge of second-degree murder of his shots against Eleanor Bumpers, 66. The police never serving sentences for violence against the people.
The biggest murderer of all is the violence of social conditions. But that's something almost completely hidden from view. Many people barely conscious, to give just one example, the black infant mortality is twice higher than that of whites why these babies have to die? The conditions of oppression and colonization of black people will never be canceled without the ability to break the power and violence of the police. According
, social violence far exceeds the costs of any revolution that wants to end it. But does that mean you can end up spending anything? Is not there a danger of ending up as the oppressor?
any differences exist between the world of reactionary violence and revolutionary violence. Imperialist violence terrorist by the fact that normally is directed to large numbers of people, especially civilians, torture is a typical weapon, a main objective is to terrorize those who might otherwise resist; The ultimate purpose is to maintain operating conditions and intolerable social suffering. Revolutionary violence is the opposite, should be strategic and focused on mobilizing the oppressed and break the repressive apparatus of state, we must establish clear criteria that express the humanistic character of the struggle.
What was the specific political stance you took during the trial?
Kuwasi Balagoon and Sekou Odinga took the position of prisoners of war as combatants in the struggle for black liberation. They argued that the United States had settled the people of New Africa. Colonial Courts of the United States had no legal legitimacy on the New African. There is an accepted international law to fight against colonial and racist regimes.
Judy Clark and I took the anti-imperialist stance, fighting in solidarity with the struggle for black liberation. We recognized that United States imperialism was a criminal and anti-human, and not accept the legitimacy of their courts.
Tell me about the people who were arrested with you.
We are all people who have fought for human rights and against the tyranny of this system throughout our adult lives. Sekou Odinga and Kuwasi Balagoon took part in the case of the 21 Panthers (In April 1969, police arrested 21 New York Black Panthers in a giant conspiracy to commit an attack. After a long trial, the jury acquitted them of all charges. But the arrests and the depletion of resources, along with other attacks by the government, had decimated the New York chapter of the Black Panthers.) Judith Clark, Kathy Boudin and I were involved in the Civil Rights movement in the early 60's and in the antiwar movement of the mid- 60. We have been anti-imperialist activists since.
Many of the people with whom I have spoken widely sympathetic to the movement of the 60, but that people find your refusal to recognize the legitimacy of the courts as too extravagant posture and individual sacrifice unnecessary.
I think it's a sign of the repressive power of the courts, you know, that makes it seem too extravagant for us to declare openly and honestly as we see them. If you study who goes to prison and who does not, it becomes crystal clear that the courts are definitely not the work of justice and equality. For example, in North Carolina, the Ku Klux Klan shot dead five demonstrators anti-klan in front of TV cameras, never played a day're cold-blooded murder. On the other side of the scale, Geronimo Pratt, a Black Panther leader, has served 13 years of a life sentence even though there is evidence in FBI files to prove his innocence. Kathy Boudin
prepared a legal defense and finally reached an agreement for a sentence of 20 years to life. How do you evaluate this?
Of course, his conviction, under conditions that normally acts legal system was incredibly severe. It's a sign, like the sentences we had the rest of us, how the cuts were politically motivated in this case. Even through the legal process and agreement, as the first statement she was sentenced to life imprisonment and then a manslaughter (indirect ownership). Meanwhile, a gang of white teenagers kicked to death Willie Turks, a black worker, who was unarmed. One of these thugs was convicted of murder, two other minor offenses, that was all. O, 8 of the 11 policemen who beat to death Michael Stewart while he was handcuffed. DA Morgenthau gave them immunity from possible charges of murder because of who testified before a grand jury. Later, the same DA would not give immunity to some young black to Bernard Goetz shot in the back, and Goetz was declared free of charges of assault and attempted murder.
"You were you, Judy and Kathy from Weather Underground Organization? Historically we
Weather Underground. At the beginning of the 70 militant WUO represented a very positive trend against the alliance with imperialism and national liberation struggles - particularly Vietnam and Black Liberation. A large number of young white men identified with the militants, the spirit and direction. WUO but also had serious problems and eventually represented the common story across the white left in general: abandonment of solidarity with the struggles for national liberation and a fold of militancy.
The FBI was never able to dismantle them in hiding. But WUO eventually foundered on their own internal political problems. Those of us linked to 20 October we are trying to learn and apply the lessons of the history of WUO. Although undoubtedly made mistakes, express, and continue to do so, the heart of what is needed for a historic breakthrough: the national liberation alliance and willingness to fight against imperialism.
WUO Some critics looked like the policies of white guilt. These people saw on 20 October as a terrible extension of these policies.
Calling her "guilt" comes from a vision of upper class. There is no guilt in identifying and love to the oppressed - especially when they open a path to human social change. Part of the vindication of our fundamental humanity which has been distorted by white supremacy. Never stop the exploitation of white workers and end the oppression of women without a partner with national liberation struggles. That is why we have to eradicate the disease in our own society at a time to unite with those who are fighting hard against imperialism.
Were involved these errors on 20 October?
Definitely. In response to criticisms and struggles, Judy and I tried to analyze some of the problems from the vantage point of white anti-imperialist fighters. I do not think this is the place to go into any detail, many questions are still trying to solve. But overall, this error of interventionism, a type of claim to be a special white individuality or "exceptional" when acting within the Independence Movement of the New Africans, without taking real responsibility to build our own movement. There was also too a belief that the military actions of small groups could prompt a political movement. This is a sensitive issue because some leftists so unscrupulous used to attack all the existing armed struggles. In a first scenario it is necessary to start very small, with the goal of building something larger. But all armed revolutionary struggle must, from the beginning, be guided by clear political terms in order to build the massive participation in the struggle against imperialism. Another issue is that we fail, I think, in not putting enough attention on issues of the revolutionary character. Those who engage in armed struggle can be reached under intense pressure State. Can not be in this for some kind of experience egomaniac. You have to be deeply committed to the oppressed.
And what about the demand for land and independence for a Black Nation? Many people find it as difficult to imagine.
Well, that may be at that point, but certainly not that hard to imagine that the European settlers came here and wrested a whole continent to the Native Americans, importing millions of Africans as slaves, conquering half of Mexico . Radical changes have occurred before in history. Can, and will, there are radical changes in the side of justice. I advocate
the position of national liberation. This position maintains that the New Black or African have been systematically oppressed as a people and that white supremacy is deeply embedded in America as the only path to total freedom is through independence through a struggle of national liberation. Every struggle has involved a territorial base.
showed "on October 20 that armed struggle can not work in the U.S.?
at all, you have to understand that revolution is not like the name of a pancake mix - you know, three easy steps, just follow the instructions on the back of the package. The revolution is a complex and difficult. Setbacks occur. It is no excuse mistakes - must be analyzed and overcome. But if the general direction is honored, the collective movement can learn from setbacks and move forward.
There is a story and an important continuation of armed struggle and black liberation Puerto Rican independence. Here, in the past two years has also been a very positive development of anti-imperialist actions in relation to Central America or South Africa. The armed struggle is not a substitute for the activism of the masses, but can play an important role showing the nature and vulnerability of the enemy. It is important to seek the ability to make the struggle extends beyond us.
What is the worst part of prison?
The separation of loved ones, the difficulty of being politically productive, level of control and restraint in every detail of your life, the constant presence of the force and the threat of violence, isolation from nature.
Is there any redeeming feature?
Keep your dignity and principles, striving to find ways to be politically productive, love of family, friends and comrades that shines through the walls, examples of humanity and creativity among prisoners.
you ever got to see your wife or your child?
As you know, Kathy is in Bedford Kills with a sentence of 20 years to life. We can write and do it regularly. We do not have permission to visit. Let us talk by phone once every six months. Chese I visit from time to time, as the distance permits. His views are phenomenal. He is very energetic and affectionate. As I said, I've been very fortunate in that the love of my family and friends shine through the walls. It is a source of strength for me, and, well, I hope and feel that I am also giving them something to them in these relationships. These
in a maximum security prison. Do you get any special treatment?
Yes, there are special restrictions for me and a handful of prisoners. I have no permission to go to the shops or school. It is a total restriction from here these are the only comprehensive programs available. The constraints are policies, they apply to me because the comrades of the BLA and also a couple of people they see as potential organizers.
What about the physical harassment?
So far there has been no problem for me. Actually I have far fewer problems than some guys who do not have support abroad. Support abroad is very important for the safety and welfare of prisoners.
What are the conditions of prison now?
Basically, the trends are bad now. You know the political climate, have won public support for state version of "law and order." So basically the prison authorities feel they have the green light to be retreating, step by step, the modest gains that were obtained in 70. In addition, the unit of prisoners and conscience are at a low level, reflecting the decline of social movements in general.
Who is in prison and what are the causes of crime?
is a large and complex issue. There are a few generalizations I can do. The greatest common denominator who ends up in prison is the people from poor backgrounds. The prison is a repressive tool against those rebels and uncontrolled elements that are among the colonized people (blacks, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans, Mexicans) and those who are among the poorest whites. Here, the population seems to be between 40-45% of blacks and 35% of Latinos. And it is rare, very rare for someone with money end up in prison. Another major generalizations is the worst thing you can say about the prisoners is that they tend to apply the values \u200b\u200bthat predominate in capitalist society to its own socio-economic situation. Capitalism is based primarily on the individual goal to make money in spite of who gets hurt - and be willing to use force and violence to back it up. People who do this on a large scale are the most powerful and "respected" in our society. But when someone from a poor community does the same thing, on a small scale, is a terrible criminal.
So the criminal can not see what you did wrong - except to be captured. Then he or she has the experience of all the illegal actions carried out by the police, DA, judges and jailers in their efforts condemn and punish people. The guardians of "law and order" are the most systematic violators of the existing law - not to mention the serious violations of international law as the invasion of Grenada and the attacks on Nicaragua.
So the right program can only make the problem worse over time. The criminal nature of the system means that there is no basis for rehabilitation, but instead the prison system produces criminals resentful. Strengthen the state's repressive means strengthening the colonial and class relations on the basis of the problem. Which is not exactly a program would be left to the crime. The left can not respond idealizing prisoners. There are many people who play a negative role in the poor and oppressed communities, as there are some very good and decent people. A real program to end the crime should be linked to a struggle against the social and economic structure, should start with throw the biggest criminals of the pinnacle of society (my "trickle") and should also involve a struggle for social values \u200b\u200band human collectives.
In the months of October and November 1984 there were three different series of sensational arrests of revolutionaries. In a pre-planned assault, 8 New African activists were surrounded by 100 police the NYPD and the FBI. On November 4, five activists with alleged connections to the unit Melville-Jackson United Liberation Front (United Freedom Front) were arrested in Cleveland. Then, on November 30, Susan Rosenberg and Tim Blunk was arrested in New Jersey. What are your feelings and your evaluation of this series of arrests?
First, all my love and solidarity goes to anyone who is attacked by the state in this way. It can be intense and that people with firmly held principles. I certainly hope that all the revolutionaries who are wanted by the police remain at large and that resistance grow and prosper. Not exactly as defined politically all these people, and in no way want to speak for them. In fact, it is important that resources are available to those comrades that his voice becomes stronger and broader dialogue. Beyond the hardships involved, the situation shows that not only are we facing a handful of individuals "crazy" as the media would have us believe. We're talking about real movements, committed to fight against imperialism, with real roots in history, and most importantly, a potential key to the future.
How would you define movement of people in prison now? What should you do with your situation?
currently in prison are an assortment of people for political reasons: the prisoners of war for national liberation struggles, anti-imperialist fighters, grand jury resistant, resistant to recruitment, workers at refugee shelters. Real justice means to release all those imprisoned for fighting against oppression. Until this is achieved, there must be a recognition of our political status and commensurate treatment under the UN guidelines.
I would encourage people who are reading this to manufacture of the support that demand political status and to ultimately achieve the release of all revolutionary prisoners. This is not only to assist the individualized involved, it is even more important to build awareness of the need for a movement to fight against this cruel imperialism and soaked in blood.
One last question. Sometimes when you talk sounds like you think the revolution is imminent. Many people consider the idea of \u200b\u200ba revolution in the U.S. as something far minimally. Some might argue that, despite the validity of your goals, you're on a quixotic quest.
I am sure that for those who lived in ancient Rome, or in Pharaonic Egypt, or the reign of Ming Dynasty, these empires also seem eternal. The U.S. empire will fall as did their predecessors. The most important is our ability to prevent WMD and to replace this system by an egalitarian society - a socialist - more humane and cooperative. This is part of why it is important to building a vital revolutionary movement, with clear principles, at the moment. The revolution here is not coming from the perspective of an individual life, there is a long fight ahead of us.
But from the perspective of history Globally, things are moving quite fast since the end of World War II with the emergence of struggles for national liberation.
see, U.S. imperialism appears invincible power, but the sources of its great strength is also the basis for its ultimate weakness. The U.S. swept the fabulous wealth of the Third World countries around the globe. But in an era of national liberation, the U.S. found its growing military power finish - Extended and drained around the globe, and economic power is undermined. Internally, the U.S. forged his empire and his great wealth to absorb the land and labor of entire peoples, Native Americans, Blacks, Mexicans. These internally colonized peoples, especially in the context of the expansion of U.S. military power abroad, develop a strong fight for national liberation within our borders.
Inside the oppressor nation (ie, among white Americans) there is also a major contradiction of class oppression as women. The leaders have been able to immerse the class conflict with the power and wealth extracted from the oppressed nations. This database will be torn down, and we will be faced with severe economic relocation and unjust wars.
Well, this may be too schematic. We're not trying to write an essay. The point is that this powerful empire has been built under a social contradictions are starting to crack.
Well, what do you think they should be doing (Columbia students or Bernard) (or youth) to today?
I think right now the driving force would be the government mobilization for the war in Central America and the need to stop it. To actually stop these imperialist wars, we will also have to deal with the fundamental structures within the U.S.: internal colonialism and racism, class domination, male supremacy. At a broader level wide, I would like to appeal to students so they could return to come into contact with a basic humanism. Reagan's kingdom is a call to the connection between the terrible cruelty and cynicism. But you know, we can not feel well or very integrity with our self-esteem and humanity if we denied it to other people. Our prospects and our commitment should be identified with the conditions and aspirations of the vast majority of mankind - the oppressed. If you look honestly in the systematic violence of the social conditions and analyze the structures and powers that make them comply with ... because I think the only conclusion is the revolutionary fully human.
Interview with David Gilbert, April 2, 1985.
